Веселое на ютубе

[VOL]

Сообщение от Лентяй

Мы сейчас про режим, или про страну, победившую фашизм? Были ли планы у "сталинистов" полного уничтожения, например Берлина? А у Гитлера по поводу Москвы и Ленинграда? Тот, кто не считается со своей историей, к сожалению, вынужден переживать ее снова. А эти картинки - просто оскорбление подвига нашего с Вами, между прочим, народа.
Я с трудом представляю себе фашистские плакаты на немецком форуме, зато у нас...

Я разделяю вашу точку зрения. Но не стоит так реагировать на художественные произведения. Схожесть очевидна, а значит есть мотив. Я не думаю, что господин "Гуди" выложил эти фото, чтобы поздеваться над нашей победой.

[AngelOfGrief]

Сообщение от VOL

Я не думаю, что господин "Гуди" выложил эти фото, чтобы поздеваться над нашей победой.

А я вообще не увидел в этом никакого издевательства ни над подвигом нашего народа ни над победой. У меня почему-то таких мыслей даже не возникло...
При чём здесь народ? Агитматериалы создавались по инициативе правящей элиты тех времён. А насколько были похожи сами режимы я, наверное, не стал бы говорить однозначно, слишком уж сложно это оценить... При том, что оба они действительно были тоталитарными по своей сути.

[Лентяй]

Чего критиковать людей, если они были гражданами своей страны, и, несомненно, получали определенные преимущества от работы на свою страну. Другого и быть не могло. Так же как и советские конструкторы строили танки, самолеты, радиостанции, и старались сделать их лучшими. Но это все таки другое. Это всего лишь техника, а не то, что направлено на умы и души.

[*Guderian*]

Спасибо, что справедливо оцениваете это. Многие крайне радикальны в этом вопросе. Но при этом пользуются бытовой техникой известных немецких марок.

А возвращаясь к агитации удивляет другое: почти одинаковое моделирование сюжета.

[VOL]

Сообщение от *Guderian*

Многие крайне радикальны в этом вопросе. Но при этом пользуются бытовой техникой известных немецких марок.

А тут вы не правы.

[*Guderian*]

Отчего же? У меня уже неоднократно были диспуты на эту тему.

[VOL]

Сообщение от *Guderian*

Отчего же? У меня уже неоднократно были диспуты на эту тему.

Ну, хотя бы потому, что использование немецких машин и другой техники, приборов никак не связано ни с войной ни с отношением к немецкому народу. Это тут вообще не причем! Вы часто упоминали в этих случаях Фердинанда Порше. Его лояльность к фашисткому режиму, никак не отражается на произведенных на заводе Порше машинах, и тем более их покупателях. Путать идейность и материальные блага, кто бы их не производил - не корректно.

[*Guderian*]

Сообщение от VOL

Ну, хотя бы потому, что использование немецких машин и другой техники, приборов никак не связано ни с войной ни с отношением к немецкому народу. Это тут вообще не причем! Вы часто упоминали в этих случаях Фердинанда Порше. Его лояльность к фашисткому режиму, никак не отражается на произведенных на заводе Порше машинах, и тем более их покупателях. Путать идейность и материальные блага, кто бы их не производил - не корректно.

Стоп: Ф. Порше сконструировал Тигр, Королевский тигр, Маус, Фердинанд, полноприводной Штейр 1500 и это не говоря про Кюбельвагены разных модификаций. То есть, осуществлял прямые заказы Вермахта.

То же самое происходило у Даймлер-Бенц, БМВ, Карл Цейс, Нестле, Бош, Крупп, Сименс, Ауто-Юнион, ФВ, Опель и другие...

Поэтому нам надо определиться: либо мы воспринимаем историю такой, какой она была, либо живем стереотипами.

[VOL]

Сообщение от *Guderian*

Стоп: Ф. Порше сконструировал Тигр, Королевский тигр, Маус, Фердинанд, полноприводной Штейр 1500 и это не говоря про Кюбельвагены разных модификаций. То есть, осуществлял прямые заказы Вермахта.

То же самое происходило у Даймлер-Бенц, БМВ, Карл Цейс, Нестле, Бош, Крупп, Сименс, Ауто-Юнион, ФВ, Опель и другие...

Поэтому нам надо определиться: либо мы воспринимаем историю такой, какой она была, либо живем стереотипами.

И, что? Что это меняет? Автомобиль из Штудгарда никакого отношения к фашизму не имеет. Фердинанд, разрабатывая "жука" не думал, что "жук" станет идеей 3 рейха! Он просто делал автомобиль для народа. Не путайте идеологию и материальные блага!

[*Guderian*]

Спасибо за понимание.

[*Guderian*]

Это вы не мне адресуйте. Я к истории отношусь спокойно, с уважением, какой бы она не была.

Для меня остается фактом, что Нюрнбергский процесс осудил нацистских преступников, Германия выплатила репарации, а восточная ее часть на 45 лет погрузилась во тьму псевдокоммунизма.

[AngelOfGrief]

Сообщение от *Guderian*

Это вы не мне адресуйте. Я к истории отношусь спокойно, с уважением, какой бы она не была.

Генерал, проблема больше в трактовке истории, а не в истории как таковой. Потому что эта трактовка у любого человека в первую очередь базируется на том, во что он верит, а не на фактах. И то, что история во многом противоречива (т.к. сами историки, писавшие её, тоже имеют определённые убеждения) только подливает масла в огонь споров на различные исторические темы.

Политика, религия, история -- всё это вещи, затрагивающие личные убеждения человека. Именно поэтому дискуссии на эти темы никогда не приводят к общему знаменателю.

[Moscow]

Сообщение от *Guderian*

Это вы не мне адресуйте. Я к истории отношусь спокойно, с уважением, какой бы она не была.

Для меня остается фактом, что Нюрнбергский процесс осудил нацистских преступников, Германия выплатила репарации, а восточная ее часть на 45 лет погрузилась во тьму псевдокоммунизма.

Фердинанд Порше отсидел почти два года во Французской тюрьме по обвинению в пособничеству фашистскому режиму. Самоходная установка Фердинанд учасвовала во всех танковых сражениях начиная с Курской дуги и до конца войны. Так что дело не в Жуке.

[*Guderian*]

Сообщение от Moscow

Фердинанд Порше отсидел почти два года во Французской тюрьме по обвинению в пособничеству фашистскому режиму.

Нет, не поэтому...

Отрывок из книги Dennis Adler "Porsche: the road from Zuffenhausen"

"...The first incident occurred in the summer of 1945 when a German informer, who, as Ferry wrote, had “insinuated his way into favor with the British,” became chief of police in Wolfsburg. Seeking to strengthen his political position, he accused Ferdinand Porsche of murder after two bodies were found in the house that Porsche had used when visiting the KdF factory. The trumped-up charges were unsubstantiated since no one from the Porsche family had been anywhere hear Wolfsburg for several months. However, the police chief the persisted and convinced the chief of the American military police in Zell am See that the Porsches were murderers. Ferry considered the whole affair preposterous until a until of American MPs arrived and arrested every male member of the Porsches family except Ferdinand Porsche, who was a Gmund visiting Karl Rabe. Erwin Komenda and most of the factory workers living on the estate grounds, thirty-two people in all, were also taken into custody and carted off to prison in Salzburg.
Unbeknownst to any of the family members in Zell am See, Ferdinand Porsche was also taken into custody and was under house arrest at Gmund until early August. He was then driven in his own car to Schloss Kransberg, a castle near Bad Nauheim that had been turned into an internment camp by the occupation forces. There, Porsche was kept along with senior members of the German ministry, including Albert Speer, Hitler’s minister for armaments and war production. Everyone held at Schloss Kransberg was under suspicion of war crimes, and it was here that the Allies would ascertain who would be sent to trial at the Nuremberg Count. Those sent to trial, including German Field Marshal Hermann Goring and ten other Nazi Party leaders, were sentenced to death in 1946.
Knowing that Porsche had not been involved in any political activity during the war, Speer strenuously defended him before the military tribunal. As a result, Porsche was cleared of any suspicion of complicity in war crimes and given am official document stating that no charges were to be brought against him. When he returned to Austria, shortly after his seventieth birthday, he discovered that his son and all his associates were in prison, accused of a crime they not only had not committed but of which they had no knowledge. Ferry and the others had been interned for thirteen weeks, and not once had any of them been questioned about the incident in Wolfsburg.
Recalled Ferry, “My father eventually succeeded in convincing the British of our innocence, and he secured our release from the American military government in Vienna.” It was November 1, 1945, and when Ferry arrived back in Zell am See, he believed that the worst was over. “We were to be proved hopelessly wrong,” he said.
Sentiments toward Germany were hard-hearted, much worse than they had been after the Great War. The Morgenthau Plan, named after Henry Morgenthau, Jr., Franklin D. Roosevelt’s Secretary of the Treasure (1934-1945) and the son of a wealthy U.S. financier and statesman who was born in Germany, was a harsh peace settlement that called for the total dismantling of German industry, the closure of mines, and the conversion of highly industrialized nation into am agrarian state. Allied bombing attacks beginning in 1943 had almost assured the first decree; nevertheless, by the end of summer 1945, the Allied occupation forces were allowing the German automotive industry to begin the slow process of cleaning up and rebuilding. This was about the time a young French lieutenant named Henri LeComte arrived at the Porsche estate in Austria.
“Lieutenant LeComte had first gone our Zuffenhausen factory and discovered that we were living in Austria. LeComte claimed to be working on behalf of Marcel Paul, the French minister for industry,” wrote Ferry. “Paul was a member of the French Communist Party. He wanted to obtain the Volkswagen factory as part of Germany’s reparations payment to France. Of course of agreement of the American and, more important, the British, in whose zone the factory was, had to be obtained.” What the French needed even more was Ferdinand Porsche's help, or so it first appeared when LeComte came knocking on Porsche's door. At his bequest, in mid-November Anton Piech and the Porsches, along with their cousin Herbert Kaes, drove to Baden-Baden, which was now in the French-occupied zone of West Germany. There they met at the Hotel Muller with government representatives who told them that France was planning to build a state-owned automobile factory which would include half of the manufacturing equipment from the VW plant of Wolfsburg as reparations payments. The Porsches were needed to supervise the removal and relocation of the Volkswagen tooling and to oversee construction of the new manufacturing facility in France. The French by LeComte's superiors, Major Trevoux and Major Maiffre, had gone so far as to draft a contact in advance for Ferdinand Porsche to sign. Trevoux requested that he do so before leaving. Although the plan appeared to have some merit and had obviously piqued Porsche's curiosity, he told Trevoux that he needed to think it over before agreeing to the proposal.
Back in Zell am See, Ferry expressed serious doubts regarding Marcel Paul's plan and the sincerity of the French to build a German car, but his father had become enthusiastic about the project in the weeks that followed. He told Ferry, “It look as if the French are pretty serious about this business.” Early in December the Porsches, Piech, and Kaes once again made the drive to Baden-Baden to resume discussions with Trevoux. They had no idea that the political situation had changed between November and December and that they were now walking into trap.
The French accommodated the Porsches in the Villa Bella Vista, and a meeting was arranged again at the Hotel Muller. When they arrived, however, Trevoux was not were. In his place was a Colonel Lamis, who barely showed any interest in the discussions and asked seemingly irrelevant questions of Ferdinand Porsche. The meeting concluded rather abruptly, and the Porsches were sent back to their rooms. “My father gradually became more and more impatient,” recalled Ferry, “and decided to go back to Zell am See the next day. That same evening Maiffre and LeComte were dining with us when two Frenchmen in civilian clothes suddenly appeared and told us that we were under arrest. LeComte acted surprised and said, “The whole thing is a misunderstanding, believe me! Please remain calm and don't get excited. We'll have the matter cleared up by Monday!” Monday would be too late. The order had come from the French minister of justice, Pierre-Henri Teitgen, and on Sunday, December 16, 1945 Ferdinand and Ferry Porsche and Fr. Anton Piech were taken to the prison in Baden-Baden. Kaes, who had decided to skip the dinner on Friday and go to the cinema instead, managed to escape arrest. Staying at the house of relative, he remained nearby to observe the events as they unfolded.
The Porsches were imprisoned now for the second time in as many month. Knowing of the document clearing his father of any war crimes, Ferry was at a loss to understand their unprovoked arrest. His answer came the next day when a series of charges were leveled at his father and brother-at-law, this time for misconduct with respect to prisoners of war and workers at the Peugeot plants that had come under the control of VW during Germany's occupation of France. The rationale was that Ferdinand Porsche and Anton Piech had been in charge of the KdF Werk during the war, thus they were responsible for the acts of the Gestapo who had brutalized French workers. The accusations were as thin as the paper on which they were written. The Porsche and Piech had merely become pawns in a battle between two factions, and their arrest was part of a politically motivated conspiracy by French automakers and those in the French cabinet to sabotage Marcel Paul's plan of building VWs in France. Ferry's early apprehensions about the sincerity of the French had been correct. “They had hoped to achieve their aim by taking us out of circulation,” he said. And it had worked. The accusations, false or otherwise, were far more serious than they first appeared.
The charges against his father, as Ferry later recounted, were based on half-truths and the mistaken beliefs about events that occurred at the Peugeot factory in Montbeliard.”My father was accused of being a war criminal on the grounds that, after a few incidents of sabotage at Peugeot factories, some French people had been arrested by the Gestapo at my father's instigation. There was alleged to be evidence that a few Peugeot managers had been thrown into prison during the German occupation. This was all contained in charges brought against my father, which we would have dismissed as ridiculous if the situation had not been so serious. In reality, my father had intervened on behalf of the Peugeot managers and had complained bitterly to the Gestapo that cooperation would be impossible if the Peugeot management was locked up in jail. The managers were subsequently released. However, when shortly afterward there were further acts of sabotage at Peugeot, several managers were thrown back into prison. My father intervened again, but this time the strength of available evidence meant his efforts were in vain. One of the managers died during his imprisonment.”